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welcome to the skeptic zone the podcast

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hello and welcome to the skeptic zone

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episode number 295 for the 15th of june

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2014 richard saunders here with you from

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sydney australia halfway through june

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already

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july is not far away

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i'll be heading out to

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the amazing meeting in july but more

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about that soon i guess and i hope to

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bring you many reports

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from the amazing meeting i'll see if i

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can run around i'll pretend i may not

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i'll run around with my microphone and

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get

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some interesting interviews from there

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i'm sure

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but let's see what's coming up on this

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week's episode of the skeptic zone we're

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going to kick off with a grain of salt

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with a rancid

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now iran talks um

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to johnny scaramunga

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who grew up as a um

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fundamentalist christian

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and he's sort of uh broken away from

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that now but he's going to tell us what

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it's like growing up in that sort of

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atmosphere very interesting report

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another one another one of iran's

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reports from qed in manchester following

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that it's a week in science from the

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royal institution of australia at

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dot a u

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then we have a sort of a guest editorial

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from cigna kane she's going to be

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telling us about

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well why we should ignore what

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anti-vaxxers have to say in their

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conspiracy theories

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yeah it's like talking to a brick wall

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sometimes talking to some of these

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people in fact i've had better

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conversations with a brick wall

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that's coming up

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somewhere in the middle of the show now

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this editorial was originally published

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on medium which is at

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medium.com

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and i'll include a link to that in the

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show notes for this week after that it's

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evidence please with joe alabaster

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joe's going to be telling us about some

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of the woo and

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interesting things going on that well

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aimed at young mothers or young parents

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pregnant women that sort of thing then

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to round off the show it's our roving

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reporter dr chrissy wilson roving indeed

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she's all the way over there in london

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she's going to be telling us about a new

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book called the survival hypothesis

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because she included a chapter a

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skeptical chapter in a probably not a

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very skeptical book now those people who

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follow me on twitter at skepticszone

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would have seen that i've put up a

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little video of

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some outtakes and bloopers and things

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that i

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i

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that

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um i never knew it took so long to put a

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little documentary together but uh

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you'll be the first to hear well no you

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won't you'll be

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not quite the first to you'll be amongst

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the first people to hear

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when that goes online

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very soon i hope but for now i'm going

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to run downstairs i'm going to open the

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dry crackers

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and last few days i seem to have picked

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up some sort of weird um bug

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which means that a lot of food is not

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very appealing to me right now

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dry crackers and dry ginger ale i think

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i'll do the trick and while i'm slowly

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and carefully eating that i hope you

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i'm here with johnny scaramanga with

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whom i uh shared uh the uh stage today

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we were on a panel about uh

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religion uh persecutor or persecuted

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um and johnny has a very interesting

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life story um

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in which he partially writes about in

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his uh blog what's the name of your blog

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john my book's called leaving

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fundamentalism and what is the life

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story that led to writing that blog well

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i was born into

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the crazy end of christianity i've just

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alienated half the people i'm trying to

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speak to by calling it the crazy end of

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christianity but it was it was it was

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crazy i was

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in like a mixture of all the different

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kinds of fairly extreme and conservative

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christianity that there is because my

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mom worked for kenneth copeland

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ministries he's one of the american tv

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evangelists that you'll see on channels

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like tbn saying you know if you give

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money to god then he will give you a

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hundred times that back and so i was

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given on the day i was born a bible with

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his signature in the front that said

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jesus is lord and this is the world that

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i was born into and then i went to a

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school that used the accelerated

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christian education curriculum which is

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a different kind of conservative

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christian that was a baptist and taught

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creationism instead of science and we

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didn't have so this is something that i

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i'm pretty sure that listeners to our

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podcast would have no idea about so

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maybe if you could elaborate um a little

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bit more about the

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but this accelerated christian education

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sure ace

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yeah they hate being called ace so let's

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call amaze

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so

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they don't have teachers in the normal

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sense in these schools uh the kids

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for most of the week are working

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at desks which are enclosed on three

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sides with high screens between the

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students to stop them from interacting

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with each other and so

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you're working in silence on these

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worksheets that combine the religious

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teachings into every academic subject so

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when you're studying history you're

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studying how

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the reason stuff happened the way it did

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is because it was all part of god's plan

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which was to

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ultimately create america as a christian

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nation and see the creation of the state

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of israel those were the two big things

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on god's god's agenda and then if you're

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doing science

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you're learning about how evolution is

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bunk and what happened in genesis

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literally happened six thousand years

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ago what about maths

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maths they struggled to to it's

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difficult to make a christian version of

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math so they'd have lots of bible verses

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on the page while you're doing maths and

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then occasion you'd get something like

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you know the bible says goliath was x

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cubits tall

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so um there's this many qubits in a foot

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and this many feet in a meter so how

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many meters tall was goliath okay

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so so how long

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were you subject to this kind of

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education actually not very long

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compared to a lot of people i did it for

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my first year of preschool when i was

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three years old and then i went to a

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normal primary school and went back when

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i was 11 just before i was due to go

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into secondary school and i was there

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until just before i turned 15. so it's

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like four years in total that i was

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there and some people do it for you know

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12 or 13 and

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that must really bend you out of shape

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because it's taken me

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ever since to kind of process what

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happened to me there so what did happen

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since then so you've obviously left

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religion but um so you survived

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fundamentalism and you've uh

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you've left um that way of life yeah

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what's the story around that

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that's a long story i'm in the middle of

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writing a book about that uh so the

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short answer is the book

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the

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cover

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the you know the at the back of the book

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yeah right yeah there's gonna be another

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bird so

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i

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how old were you then 11.

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and i became suicidal in quite a short

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space of time after after going there

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and

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now it seems really obvious to me uh

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and eventually i had this big meltdown

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in school one day and i couldn't see for

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a few seconds and then the next thing i

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knew i was shouting everyone and then i

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slammed the door and walked out

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when my parents found out that happened

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they took the decision to remove me from

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the school and i started getting a

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proper education so i was really lucky i

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was able to do the last four years of

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school in a fairly normal way and

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that meant that i started to get a good

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education it was really difficult

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because teachers would talk to me about

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all kinds of stuff that i just felt was

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was wrong and i freaked out by it but

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eventually i had my mind opened enough

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by by going to school with sinners and

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realizing they weren't these evil

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junkies that i've been told that they

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were gonna be

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um

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so uh nate uh phelps today in his talk

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mention talked about the the phases of

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leaving christianity where you know

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there's the aha moment then there's what

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was i thinking moment yeah

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and then the

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what was i thinking again

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the aha moment followed yeah so what was

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i don't know if i had one but one that

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was really important to me was that ace

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teaches that god is right wing and the

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the more christian you are the more the

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further to right you will be on the

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political spectrum and i'd have taken

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that very much to heart and i took all

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their lessons about how communism was

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the most evil thing in the world and i

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took politics a-level and so you don't

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look old enough to

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um to have had all this kind of

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education during a time when communism

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was a real threat unless you lived in

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north korea no right

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the the thing about fundamentalism is

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that it

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is really rooted in the past it doesn't

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believe in change

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so

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fundamentalism developed during the cold

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war christian fundamentalism is a really

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recent phenomenon and and its real peak

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of like

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growth was in the 60s and 70s so all of

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this curriculum that i was studying was

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written

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in

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the

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about communism were really prevalent in

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the curriculum even though communism had

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fallen and it really was irrelevant

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and so i was being taught all this stuff

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about how evil socialism and communism

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were and how they were a threat to our

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way of life and when i eventually had a

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politics teacher that told me what

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communism was i was like oh so so you

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mean it's sharing

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that's kind of nice that's like

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maybe it doesn't work in practice but

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you know it's not evil i've been like

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raised so i was like there was this

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definite moment of

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re having realized that and also

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realizing that like natural selection

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was actually kind of plausible of like

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okay so what else have they been lying

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to me about

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and and what stage in your life was that

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that was when i was 18. okay but

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00:11:19,910 --> 00:11:17,839
actually it scared the hell out of me i

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didn't then think about it again i read

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00:11:23,910 --> 00:11:21,519
some stuff that made me think

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what i believe is indefensible

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and the arguments that i had

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were essentially you can't trust your

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own reasoning because you're a fallen

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human who you have a sin nature and

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therefore you're not capable of seeing

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the truth so you just have to trust take

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god's word for it and and by the way i'm

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the preacher and i know what god's word

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is so listen to me

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and uh

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i

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00:12:18,949 --> 00:12:16,959
yeah none of that none of that's real

302
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and when did you start writing your blog

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i started the blog in 2012

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and that was because a uk government

305
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agency had recognized some

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qualifications that were based on

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00:12:31,829 --> 00:12:30,639
accelerated christian education and i

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was like okay

309
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no one is going to do anything about

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this if i don't speak out if something's

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got to be done about the fact that kids

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are being given this mis-education

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this they're being deprived the rights

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to learn and to think for themselves

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and that's wrong

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and uh what about your relationship with

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your family i mean that they are aware

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that your

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00:12:55,030 --> 00:12:53,279
um you're not a believer anymore so i

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mean they obviously have to be aware of

321
00:12:58,949 --> 00:12:56,880
your way of life but do they understand

322
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the deeper implications in terms of your

323
00:13:02,550 --> 00:13:00,720
beliefs and opinions yeah well my dad

324
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died when i was 17

325
00:13:07,110 --> 00:13:04,480
which was a huge thing because my family

326
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believed in healing and and and apart a

327
00:13:10,069 --> 00:13:08,480
preacher actually said to my mum you

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know you're responsible for whether he

329
00:13:13,910 --> 00:13:12,079
lives or dies it will be down to your

330
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faith and your prayers whether whether

331
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he dies or not he died

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and

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we at that point

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that kind of meant that

335
00:13:26,470 --> 00:13:24,480
my mom and i were more free to think for

336
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ourselves without because he was kind of

337
00:13:30,230 --> 00:13:28,240
the driving force of

338
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of this

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00:13:33,350 --> 00:13:32,480
level of fanaticism that there was in my

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family

341
00:13:37,670 --> 00:13:35,839
and so i went away to university and i

342
00:13:39,430 --> 00:13:37,680
was able to make a new circle of friends

343
00:13:40,870 --> 00:13:39,440
and have the freedom to think for myself

344
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without fear of being ostracized and my

345
00:13:43,509 --> 00:13:42,480
mum was able to

346
00:13:45,670 --> 00:13:43,519
start

347
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questioning things you know without

348
00:13:50,310 --> 00:13:47,519
having the pressure from her husband and

349
00:13:52,389 --> 00:13:50,320
so independently we both left it behind

350
00:13:53,910 --> 00:13:52,399
and so my mum she's completely lifted

351
00:13:56,470 --> 00:13:53,920
yeah she's left it behind as well and i

352
00:13:58,870 --> 00:13:56,480
think that's more brave i i think you

353
00:14:00,389 --> 00:13:58,880
know for me i i got out

354
00:14:03,590 --> 00:14:00,399
i was pretty much free by the time i was

355
00:14:05,030 --> 00:14:03,600
21 and although i'd had a bad start in

356
00:14:06,550 --> 00:14:05,040
life i

357
00:14:08,389 --> 00:14:06,560
had the rest of my life ahead of me

358
00:14:11,430 --> 00:14:08,399
whereas my mum got into it when she was

359
00:14:14,629 --> 00:14:11,440
21 and lost the most important years of

360
00:14:16,389 --> 00:14:14,639
her life and now that found herself at

361
00:14:18,790 --> 00:14:16,399
retirement age going the way i brought

362
00:14:21,189 --> 00:14:18,800
up my children damaged them and what i

363
00:14:23,509 --> 00:14:21,199
have dedicated my life to is false

364
00:14:25,350 --> 00:14:23,519
and i have to deal with that and she has

365
00:14:26,389 --> 00:14:25,360
she's been a lot of people at that point

366
00:14:27,990 --> 00:14:26,399
would just

367
00:14:29,829 --> 00:14:28,000
push themselves back into their religion

368
00:14:31,269 --> 00:14:29,839
rather than face the reality of it and

369
00:14:32,389 --> 00:14:31,279
she hasn't so i think she's pretty

370
00:14:34,710 --> 00:14:32,399
heroic

371
00:14:36,150 --> 00:14:34,720
and where where can people find uh find

372
00:14:37,990 --> 00:14:36,160
out more about you what's the url of

373
00:14:40,550 --> 00:14:38,000
your blog it's it's leaving

374
00:14:54,389 --> 00:14:40,560
fundamentalism.wordpress.com

375
00:14:59,590 --> 00:14:56,710
hello dear skeptical ninjas

376
00:15:01,990 --> 00:14:59,600
my name is jake farwarten and my name is

377
00:15:04,150 --> 00:15:02,000
ross bulge and we are here to talk to

378
00:15:06,790 --> 00:15:04,160
you about bris

379
00:15:09,030 --> 00:15:06,800
skepty camp which is coming up in july

380
00:15:10,870 --> 00:15:09,040
so who is speaking out brisk after camp

381
00:15:13,350 --> 00:15:10,880
well jake you and i will be there as

382
00:15:16,470 --> 00:15:13,360
hosts as hosts and also recording a

383
00:15:19,189 --> 00:15:16,480
podcast a podcast right and we've got

384
00:15:21,189 --> 00:15:19,199
john cook from skepticalscience.com well

385
00:15:23,269 --> 00:15:21,199
we've got theo clark who does hunting

386
00:15:25,910 --> 00:15:23,279
humbug podcast and also the skeptic's

387
00:15:27,189 --> 00:15:25,920
field guide that is amazing and loretta

388
00:15:29,590 --> 00:15:27,199
maron from friends of science and

389
00:15:31,829 --> 00:15:29,600
medicine that is fantastic and if all of

390
00:15:34,150 --> 00:15:31,839
that sounded too amazing we have a whole

391
00:15:36,629 --> 00:15:34,160
host of local skeptics from the brisbane

392
00:15:38,389 --> 00:15:36,639
area so if i call now do i also get a

393
00:15:40,629 --> 00:15:38,399
free set of steak knives well i would be

394
00:15:42,389 --> 00:15:40,639
quite skeptical of that claim jake

395
00:15:44,230 --> 00:15:42,399
so how can i find out more about

396
00:15:45,990 --> 00:15:44,240
briskeptocare you can go to

397
00:15:48,310 --> 00:15:46,000
brisketcamp.org

398
00:15:51,030 --> 00:15:48,320
that was an advantageously made web

399
00:15:54,230 --> 00:15:51,040
domain name i dare say yes and when is

400
00:15:57,269 --> 00:15:54,240
bridge skepticam july 19th this year so

401
00:15:59,189 --> 00:15:57,279
july 19th this year and it's free it's

402
00:16:01,269 --> 00:15:59,199
completely free completely free yeah

403
00:16:03,910 --> 00:16:01,279
with a free set of steak knives as well

404
00:16:06,389 --> 00:16:03,920
i would continue to be skeptical

405
00:16:13,910 --> 00:16:06,399
so go to briskeptocam.org

406
00:16:17,749 --> 00:16:16,230
welcome to a week in science from rios

407
00:16:18,710 --> 00:16:17,759
bringing you the science you need to

408
00:16:20,949 --> 00:16:18,720
know

409
00:16:22,949 --> 00:16:20,959
in 50 years we've seen technology go

410
00:16:25,749 --> 00:16:22,959
from computers the size of a house to

411
00:16:31,590 --> 00:16:25,759
the size of our palm the big question is

412
00:16:37,350 --> 00:16:35,110
in 1965 gordon e moore published a paper

413
00:16:39,829 --> 00:16:37,360
entitled cramming more components onto

414
00:16:41,430 --> 00:16:39,839
integrated circuits his work predicted

415
00:16:43,110 --> 00:16:41,440
the most cost-effective number of

416
00:16:45,269 --> 00:16:43,120
transistors that could fit onto a

417
00:16:47,829 --> 00:16:45,279
silicon chip this prediction is better

418
00:16:50,150 --> 00:16:47,839
known as moore's law which states

419
00:16:52,790 --> 00:16:50,160
computing power doubles approximately

420
00:16:55,430 --> 00:16:52,800
every two years as transistors become

421
00:16:57,030 --> 00:16:55,440
smaller transistors are a miniature on

422
00:16:59,749 --> 00:16:57,040
off switch that allows a computer to

423
00:17:01,629 --> 00:16:59,759
process information the first transistor

424
00:17:04,630 --> 00:17:01,639
was developed at bell laboratories in

425
00:17:06,390 --> 00:17:04,640
1947 and was the size of a thumbnail

426
00:17:08,549 --> 00:17:06,400
although the supporting structure around

427
00:17:10,549 --> 00:17:08,559
it was the size of a hand

428
00:17:12,789 --> 00:17:10,559
since then transistors have been shrunk

429
00:17:14,630 --> 00:17:12,799
down to the nanometer scale meaning

430
00:17:16,630 --> 00:17:14,640
billions can now be crammed onto a

431
00:17:19,829 --> 00:17:16,640
single silicon chip the size of the

432
00:17:21,750 --> 00:17:19,839
original transistor

433
00:17:23,909 --> 00:17:21,760
however we may be nearing the end for

434
00:17:26,230 --> 00:17:23,919
moore's law as transistors reach the

435
00:17:28,150 --> 00:17:26,240
minimum size possible scientists are

436
00:17:29,990 --> 00:17:28,160
already working on quantum techniques

437
00:17:31,350 --> 00:17:30,000
which will shrink computers to the size

438
00:17:33,190 --> 00:17:31,360
of molecules

439
00:17:35,909 --> 00:17:33,200
this is equivalent to squeezing today's

440
00:17:38,470 --> 00:17:35,919
supercomputers onto the head of a pin as

441
00:17:40,549 --> 00:17:38,480
a result expect your personal devices to

442
00:17:42,470 --> 00:17:40,559
be fully wearable with ultra long

443
00:17:44,230 --> 00:17:42,480
battery life and able to communicate

444
00:17:46,710 --> 00:17:44,240
with buildings roadways and other

445
00:17:48,549 --> 00:17:46,720
individuals nearby as a result voice

446
00:17:51,029 --> 00:17:48,559
commands and gestures will remove the

447
00:17:52,789 --> 00:17:51,039
need for screens and keypads it's also

448
00:17:55,029 --> 00:17:52,799
possible that the next generation of

449
00:17:57,590 --> 00:17:55,039
computers may be able to simulate human

450
00:18:00,390 --> 00:17:57,600
intelligence for the first time or even

451
00:18:02,549 --> 00:18:00,400
interface directly with the human brain

452
00:18:05,190 --> 00:18:02,559
and now four fast facts about shrinking

453
00:18:08,310 --> 00:18:05,200
technology

454
00:18:10,870 --> 00:18:08,320
cyrac mark 1 a first generation computer

455
00:18:13,669 --> 00:18:10,880
built in the 1940s is on display in the

456
00:18:15,990 --> 00:18:13,679
melbourne museum it occupies 40 square

457
00:18:18,470 --> 00:18:16,000
meters and weighs around 2 tons

458
00:18:21,190 --> 00:18:18,480
today the transistors on silicon chips

459
00:18:24,310 --> 00:18:21,200
are less than 30 nanometers wide meaning

460
00:18:27,110 --> 00:18:24,320
over 2 500 would fit on the width of a

461
00:18:29,270 --> 00:18:27,120
human hair a modern transistor can turn

462
00:18:31,190 --> 00:18:29,280
on and off more than 1 billion times per

463
00:18:33,669 --> 00:18:31,200
second this is the equivalent of

464
00:18:36,230 --> 00:18:33,679
switching a light on and off 150 times

465
00:18:38,789 --> 00:18:36,240
per minute for 2 000 years

466
00:18:40,230 --> 00:18:38,799
based on moore's law futurists predict

467
00:18:41,990 --> 00:18:40,240
that computers will become more

468
00:18:45,510 --> 00:18:42,000
intelligent than humans between the

469
00:18:47,669 --> 00:18:45,520
years 2030 and 2040. that's it for this

470
00:18:50,070 --> 00:18:47,679
week in science for more information on

471
00:18:54,630 --> 00:18:50,080
shrinking technology go to the rio's

472
00:18:58,470 --> 00:18:57,270
follow us on twitter at rios and like us

473
00:19:00,390 --> 00:18:58,480
on facebook

474
00:19:08,150 --> 00:19:00,400
i'm tanya meyer and we'll catch you next

475
00:19:12,630 --> 00:19:10,310
ad hominem begging the question factoid

476
00:19:14,630 --> 00:19:12,640
propagation false analogy false cause

477
00:19:16,230 --> 00:19:14,640
false dichotomy gibberish immunized

478
00:19:17,909 --> 00:19:16,240
hypothesis moral equivalence poisoning

479
00:19:20,549 --> 00:19:17,919
the welsh implemented certitude stacking

480
00:19:22,470 --> 00:19:20,559
a deck and wtf but just some of the

481
00:19:25,110 --> 00:19:22,480
fallacies we provide real-life examples

482
00:19:26,549 --> 00:19:25,120
of in hunting humbug 101 a podcast about

483
00:19:27,190 --> 00:19:26,559
bad arguments

484
00:19:45,270 --> 00:19:27,200
check it out at

485
00:19:50,470 --> 00:19:48,310
hi i'm sigma kane recently i published

486
00:19:53,350 --> 00:19:50,480
an article titled why you should not

487
00:19:59,029 --> 00:19:53,360
listen to anti-vaxxers here is my radio

488
00:20:03,029 --> 00:20:00,870
most skeptics have come across

489
00:20:04,870 --> 00:20:03,039
conspiracy theorists the people who

490
00:20:06,950 --> 00:20:04,880
claim that lizard people are in charge

491
00:20:08,470 --> 00:20:06,960
of the world or that the moon landing

492
00:20:10,150 --> 00:20:08,480
never happened

493
00:20:12,470 --> 00:20:10,160
when you question their claims

494
00:20:13,909 --> 00:20:12,480
conspiracy theorists usually come up

495
00:20:16,710 --> 00:20:13,919
with a story that involves the

496
00:20:19,350 --> 00:20:16,720
authorities covering stuff up

497
00:20:21,430 --> 00:20:19,360
professor stefan lewandowski a cognitive

498
00:20:23,830 --> 00:20:21,440
scientist at the university of western

499
00:20:26,789 --> 00:20:23,840
australia has described conspiracy

500
00:20:29,270 --> 00:20:26,799
theories as immune to evidence

501
00:20:31,750 --> 00:20:29,280
lewandowski argues that if you reject

502
00:20:34,630 --> 00:20:31,760
evidence or reinterpret the evidence to

503
00:20:36,950 --> 00:20:34,640
be confirmation of your theory or you

504
00:20:38,390 --> 00:20:36,960
ignore mountains of evidence to focus on

505
00:20:41,510 --> 00:20:38,400
just one thing

506
00:20:43,430 --> 00:20:41,520
you're probably a conspiracy theorist

507
00:20:45,270 --> 00:20:43,440
we all know that it's great to maintain

508
00:20:48,230 --> 00:20:45,280
a healthy dose of skepticism be

509
00:20:50,230 --> 00:20:48,240
open-minded and think critically but

510
00:20:52,390 --> 00:20:50,240
conspiratorial thinking crosses that

511
00:20:55,750 --> 00:20:52,400
line and wanders off into a paranoid

512
00:20:57,669 --> 00:20:55,760
world where nobody can be trusted

513
00:20:59,430 --> 00:20:57,679
the harmless flavor of a conspiracy

514
00:21:01,029 --> 00:20:59,440
theorist will try to convince you about

515
00:21:04,230 --> 00:21:01,039
lizard people while you're having drinks

516
00:21:06,630 --> 00:21:04,240
at a pub but unfortunately others spread

517
00:21:13,190 --> 00:21:06,640
dangerous misinformation about important

518
00:21:17,990 --> 00:21:15,350
associate professor guy eslick is a

519
00:21:20,390 --> 00:21:18,000
researcher from the university of sydney

520
00:21:22,390 --> 00:21:20,400
recently he led a comprehensive review

521
00:21:24,470 --> 00:21:22,400
of studies looking at the link between

522
00:21:27,350 --> 00:21:24,480
vaccines and autism

523
00:21:29,669 --> 00:21:27,360
the conclusion put it plain and simple

524
00:21:32,789 --> 00:21:29,679
there is no evidence to support the

525
00:21:34,549 --> 00:21:32,799
claim that autism is caused by vaccines

526
00:21:37,350 --> 00:21:34,559
of course this conclusion is hardly

527
00:21:39,510 --> 00:21:37,360
surprising but we all know that militant

528
00:21:41,990 --> 00:21:39,520
anti-vaccination campaigners have been

529
00:21:43,750 --> 00:21:42,000
claiming the link exists for decades

530
00:21:45,669 --> 00:21:43,760
and now even in the light of

531
00:21:48,870 --> 00:21:45,679
comprehensive research showing the

532
00:21:51,110 --> 00:21:48,880
opposite anti-vaxxers are still refusing

533
00:21:53,510 --> 00:21:51,120
to let the myth go

534
00:21:55,510 --> 00:21:53,520
furthermore a similar attitude emerges

535
00:21:57,909 --> 00:21:55,520
when they face any other data

536
00:22:01,750 --> 00:21:57,919
contradicting their belief that vaccines

537
00:22:04,470 --> 00:22:01,760
are unsafe unnecessary and do not work

538
00:22:06,549 --> 00:22:04,480
so why is it so hard to change an

539
00:22:08,710 --> 00:22:06,559
anti-vaxxer's mind

540
00:22:10,870 --> 00:22:08,720
after all they claim to be presenting

541
00:22:12,870 --> 00:22:10,880
information in the interest of parents

542
00:22:14,630 --> 00:22:12,880
who want to make an informed choice

543
00:22:16,470 --> 00:22:14,640
about vaccines

544
00:22:18,470 --> 00:22:16,480
you'd think they would welcome evidence

545
00:22:23,909 --> 00:22:18,480
that shows vaccines are actually not

546
00:22:29,110 --> 00:22:26,710
unfortunately an anti-vaxxer is really

547
00:22:31,110 --> 00:22:29,120
just a conspiracy theorist

548
00:22:32,789 --> 00:22:31,120
some of them even admit they would not

549
00:22:33,830 --> 00:22:32,799
change their mind in light of any

550
00:22:35,669 --> 00:22:33,840
evidence

551
00:22:37,190 --> 00:22:35,679
others keep shifting the goal posts

552
00:22:39,510 --> 00:22:37,200
until the proof they demand is

553
00:22:41,990 --> 00:22:39,520
impossible to provide

554
00:22:44,470 --> 00:22:42,000
to me this is the crux of the issue

555
00:22:46,630 --> 00:22:44,480
you can't tackle a conspiracy theorist

556
00:22:48,390 --> 00:22:46,640
with facts or evidence it's because

557
00:22:50,390 --> 00:22:48,400
their logic prevents them from taking

558
00:22:52,310 --> 00:22:50,400
into account anything that contradicts

559
00:22:54,789 --> 00:22:52,320
their worldview

560
00:22:56,870 --> 00:22:54,799
in fact lewandowski and his colleagues

561
00:22:58,870 --> 00:22:56,880
have outlined six criteria for

562
00:23:01,909 --> 00:22:58,880
conspiratorial thinking

563
00:23:03,270 --> 00:23:01,919
and most of those apply to anti-vaxxers

564
00:23:06,149 --> 00:23:03,280
here's how

565
00:23:08,470 --> 00:23:06,159
the first criterion is nefarious intent

566
00:23:10,390 --> 00:23:08,480
the belief that presumed conspirators

567
00:23:12,789 --> 00:23:10,400
have evil intentions

568
00:23:15,350 --> 00:23:12,799
for anti-vaxxers this usually goes along

569
00:23:16,549 --> 00:23:15,360
the lines of big pharma killing babies

570
00:23:18,549 --> 00:23:16,559
for money

571
00:23:21,430 --> 00:23:18,559
similar narratives include careless

572
00:23:23,669 --> 00:23:21,440
doctors incompetent health authorities

573
00:23:26,230 --> 00:23:23,679
research fraud and other explanations

574
00:23:27,669 --> 00:23:26,240
for why nobody believes that vaccines

575
00:23:30,149 --> 00:23:27,679
are bad

576
00:23:32,070 --> 00:23:30,159
in other words every health official is

577
00:23:34,549 --> 00:23:32,080
in on it and the people who don't see

578
00:23:36,710 --> 00:23:34,559
this are fools

579
00:23:39,510 --> 00:23:36,720
the next criterion is the perception of

580
00:23:41,590 --> 00:23:39,520
oneself as a persecuted victim

581
00:23:43,669 --> 00:23:41,600
and sure enough if you think about it

582
00:23:45,830 --> 00:23:43,679
anti-vaxxers are usually quick to

583
00:23:48,149 --> 00:23:45,840
complain about suppression of the truth

584
00:23:50,390 --> 00:23:48,159
they have discovered particularly when

585
00:23:53,830 --> 00:23:50,400
health authorities issue warnings about

586
00:23:56,549 --> 00:23:53,840
misleading anti-vaccination campaigns

587
00:23:59,190 --> 00:23:56,559
the next criterion that fits the bill is

588
00:24:01,590 --> 00:23:59,200
nihilistic skepticism the attitude

589
00:24:03,510 --> 00:24:01,600
anti-vaxxers show when they refuse to

590
00:24:05,350 --> 00:24:03,520
believe in anything that doesn't fit

591
00:24:06,630 --> 00:24:05,360
their theory

592
00:24:08,870 --> 00:24:06,640
and lastly

593
00:24:11,110 --> 00:24:08,880
self-sealing reasoning means that any

594
00:24:13,590 --> 00:24:11,120
evidence against the conspiracy is

595
00:24:15,830 --> 00:24:13,600
interpreted as evidence for it

596
00:24:18,390 --> 00:24:15,840
this is exactly what anti-vaxxers do

597
00:24:20,149 --> 00:24:18,400
when they face a study like eslicks they

598
00:24:22,230 --> 00:24:20,159
claim the data has been cherry-picked

599
00:24:24,390 --> 00:24:22,240
the author has vested interest the

600
00:24:26,630 --> 00:24:24,400
university of sydney received new lab

601
00:24:28,789 --> 00:24:26,640
equipment for running this research and

602
00:24:31,110 --> 00:24:28,799
so on and so forth

603
00:24:33,110 --> 00:24:31,120
you can't debate a conspiracy theorist

604
00:24:35,430 --> 00:24:33,120
using evidence and reason

605
00:24:36,630 --> 00:24:35,440
it's absolutely crucial to realize this

606
00:24:38,990 --> 00:24:36,640
when faced with claims by

607
00:24:46,710 --> 00:24:39,000
anti-vaccination campaigners

608
00:24:50,149 --> 00:24:48,149
and you know what

609
00:24:51,909 --> 00:24:50,159
it's really disappointing

610
00:24:53,830 --> 00:24:51,919
we need watchdogs for the medical

611
00:24:55,350 --> 00:24:53,840
industry as much as we need them

612
00:24:57,430 --> 00:24:55,360
anywhere else

613
00:24:59,669 --> 00:24:57,440
vaccines are not without risks but they

614
00:25:01,830 --> 00:24:59,679
do prevent diseases and yes

615
00:25:04,070 --> 00:25:01,840
pharmaceutical companies are known to

616
00:25:05,430 --> 00:25:04,080
engage in shoddy and sometimes unethical

617
00:25:07,669 --> 00:25:05,440
practices

618
00:25:10,870 --> 00:25:07,679
manufacturing mistakes also happen and

619
00:25:13,190 --> 00:25:10,880
people can be harmed by medications

620
00:25:15,269 --> 00:25:13,200
but it is crucial that the discussion of

621
00:25:17,830 --> 00:25:15,279
these issues is done in a rational

622
00:25:21,029 --> 00:25:17,840
environment that encourages real debate

623
00:25:23,190 --> 00:25:21,039
and bases arguments on solid evidence

624
00:25:25,430 --> 00:25:23,200
not with militant activists who refuse

625
00:25:27,830 --> 00:25:25,440
to accept anything that won't fit their

626
00:25:29,830 --> 00:25:27,840
narrative

627
00:25:32,549 --> 00:25:29,840
scientists make mistakes and correct

628
00:25:43,830 --> 00:25:32,559
them but you can't expect a conspiracy

629
00:25:46,870 --> 00:25:45,990
hey guys jay novella here simple

630
00:25:49,669 --> 00:25:46,880
question

631
00:25:51,110 --> 00:25:49,679
where will you be this november

632
00:25:52,950 --> 00:25:51,120
because i know i'm going to be at the

633
00:25:54,710 --> 00:25:52,960
australian skeptics national convention

634
00:25:56,230 --> 00:25:54,720
in sydney and so will all the rest of us

635
00:25:57,830 --> 00:25:56,240
from the skeptic's guide to the universe

636
00:26:00,549 --> 00:25:57,840
including george robb

637
00:26:03,029 --> 00:26:00,559
and dick smith and dr carl and dr rachie

638
00:26:05,350 --> 00:26:03,039
and lots of other awesome people why

639
00:26:07,190 --> 00:26:05,360
aren't you going did you not sign up yet

640
00:26:08,549 --> 00:26:07,200
get on there and sign up this is going

641
00:26:11,590 --> 00:26:08,559
to be some epic stuff here you don't

642
00:26:19,590 --> 00:26:11,600
want to miss it go to skeptics.com dot a

643
00:26:23,590 --> 00:26:21,590
what we want is some more

644
00:26:30,950 --> 00:26:23,600
evidence please

645
00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:34,789
hello this is joe alabaster

646
00:26:38,390 --> 00:26:36,549
this week i'd like to talk about some of

647
00:26:40,549 --> 00:26:38,400
the strange claims that i encountered

648
00:26:43,590 --> 00:26:40,559
and curious advice that i was given as i

649
00:26:45,350 --> 00:26:43,600
entered the world of parenthood

650
00:26:47,190 --> 00:26:45,360
when my partner and i decided to try to

651
00:26:49,590 --> 00:26:47,200
conceive we weren't public about it and

652
00:26:51,590 --> 00:26:49,600
didn't face any fertility troubles so

653
00:26:53,269 --> 00:26:51,600
thankfully i avoided having to negotiate

654
00:26:54,950 --> 00:26:53,279
any of the myths or questionable

655
00:26:56,630 --> 00:26:54,960
treatments that hopeful parents are

656
00:26:58,630 --> 00:26:56,640
prone to encountering

657
00:27:00,630 --> 00:26:58,640
there are plenty out there though from

658
00:27:03,029 --> 00:27:00,640
old wives tales such as having a woman

659
00:27:05,269 --> 00:27:03,039
hold her legs up in the air after coitus

660
00:27:06,789 --> 00:27:05,279
having her quaff grapefruit juice or

661
00:27:09,510 --> 00:27:06,799
sitting in the chair of a woman who is

662
00:27:11,350 --> 00:27:09,520
pregnant to naturopathy acupuncture and

663
00:27:14,070 --> 00:27:11,360
other traditional chinese medicine

664
00:27:15,430 --> 00:27:14,080
chiropractic hypnotherapy and homeopathy

665
00:27:17,029 --> 00:27:15,440
treatments

666
00:27:19,110 --> 00:27:17,039
infertility affects one in six

667
00:27:21,750 --> 00:27:19,120
australian couples and as such there's a

668
00:27:22,950 --> 00:27:21,760
strong market for alternative medicine

669
00:27:24,630 --> 00:27:22,960
fortunately there are also

670
00:27:26,870 --> 00:27:24,640
evidence-based investigations

671
00:27:29,110 --> 00:27:26,880
recommendations and treatments so a trip

672
00:27:30,870 --> 00:27:29,120
to the gp for a chat and a referral can

673
00:27:32,830 --> 00:27:30,880
be a fruitful option for people who are

674
00:27:35,110 --> 00:27:32,840
experiencing trouble

675
00:27:36,870 --> 00:27:35,120
conceiving there are also many myths

676
00:27:38,710 --> 00:27:36,880
which claim that you can influence which

677
00:27:40,470 --> 00:27:38,720
sex your child will be

678
00:27:42,789 --> 00:27:40,480
some people recommending switching to a

679
00:27:44,549 --> 00:27:42,799
so-called acidifying diet which is

680
00:27:48,230 --> 00:27:44,559
supposed to cause the physiologically

681
00:27:49,669 --> 00:27:48,240
impossible act of killing off male sperm

682
00:27:50,870 --> 00:27:49,679
trying to conceive in particular

683
00:27:53,350 --> 00:27:50,880
positions

684
00:27:55,190 --> 00:27:53,360
timing conception based on ovulation

685
00:27:59,029 --> 00:27:55,200
mood or time of day

686
00:28:01,029 --> 00:27:59,039
and gorging on chocolate to have a girl

687
00:28:02,950 --> 00:28:01,039
one particularly persistent myth is that

688
00:28:04,710 --> 00:28:02,960
timing conception based on the mother's

689
00:28:07,029 --> 00:28:04,720
date of birth and the chinese lunar

690
00:28:08,630 --> 00:28:07,039
calendar can result in having either a

691
00:28:10,310 --> 00:28:08,640
boy or a girl

692
00:28:12,230 --> 00:28:10,320
i just had a quick peek at the charts

693
00:28:13,830 --> 00:28:12,240
which have informed me that my son was

694
00:28:16,230 --> 00:28:13,840
supposed to be a girl and my daughter

695
00:28:18,070 --> 00:28:16,240
was meant to be a boy but frankly it's

696
00:28:19,830 --> 00:28:18,080
pretty much a 50 50 shot

697
00:28:21,909 --> 00:28:19,840
children with intersex conditions don't

698
00:28:23,430 --> 00:28:21,919
seem to be acknowledged by this system

699
00:28:24,549 --> 00:28:23,440
and my results are statistically

700
00:28:26,149 --> 00:28:24,559
irrelevant

701
00:28:27,830 --> 00:28:26,159
as are the results of those who've had

702
00:28:30,549 --> 00:28:27,840
hits from this system and experience

703
00:28:32,710 --> 00:28:30,559
confirmation bias

704
00:28:34,870 --> 00:28:32,720
back to evidence-based medicine

705
00:28:36,870 --> 00:28:34,880
it is recommended that women take folic

706
00:28:39,110 --> 00:28:36,880
acid supplements for at least one month

707
00:28:41,029 --> 00:28:39,120
prior to conceiving then for the first

708
00:28:42,630 --> 00:28:41,039
three months of pregnancy

709
00:28:45,830 --> 00:28:42,640
research has shown that an adequate

710
00:28:48,149 --> 00:28:45,840
intake of folate 600 micrograms per day

711
00:28:50,870 --> 00:28:48,159
in the periconceptional period has the

712
00:28:52,950 --> 00:28:50,880
capacity to prevent 70 of all cases of

713
00:28:55,110 --> 00:28:52,960
neural tube defects

714
00:28:56,789 --> 00:28:55,120
additionally adequate iodine is critical

715
00:28:59,110 --> 00:28:56,799
for the gestating fetus's brain

716
00:29:00,870 --> 00:28:59,120
development and iodine deficiency is

717
00:29:01,830 --> 00:29:00,880
widespread across the population in

718
00:29:04,389 --> 00:29:01,840
general

719
00:29:06,070 --> 00:29:04,399
as such 150 micrograms supplement is

720
00:29:08,149 --> 00:29:06,080
recommended

721
00:29:10,630 --> 00:29:08,159
so when i was trying to conceive and for

722
00:29:13,269 --> 00:29:10,640
the first few weeks of my pregnancies i

723
00:29:14,950 --> 00:29:13,279
took supplements much to my children

724
00:29:17,110 --> 00:29:14,960
this meant heading to the vitamin aisle

725
00:29:19,430 --> 00:29:17,120
of my pharmacy and selecting something

726
00:29:21,510 --> 00:29:19,440
made by a company who also sold a lot of

727
00:29:22,870 --> 00:29:21,520
unnecessary and potentially harmful

728
00:29:24,710 --> 00:29:22,880
supplements

729
00:29:26,230 --> 00:29:24,720
but you do what you've got to do and

730
00:29:27,669 --> 00:29:26,240
this certainly wasn't the first time

731
00:29:29,669 --> 00:29:27,679
i've compromised my skeptical

732
00:29:32,310 --> 00:29:29,679
sensibilities in a pharmacy

733
00:29:34,310 --> 00:29:32,320
early pregnancy is an exciting time

734
00:29:36,389 --> 00:29:34,320
i chose not to go public before my first

735
00:29:38,389 --> 00:29:36,399
12-week scan but i did join an online

736
00:29:39,669 --> 00:29:38,399
parenting forum to connect with other

737
00:29:41,269 --> 00:29:39,679
women who were having similar

738
00:29:42,789 --> 00:29:41,279
experiences

739
00:29:44,870 --> 00:29:42,799
i chose the one which appeared to be the

740
00:29:47,590 --> 00:29:44,880
least were invested but goodness it's a

741
00:29:49,269 --> 00:29:47,600
minefield of anecdotal belief out there

742
00:29:51,190 --> 00:29:49,279
i was very lucky with the birth group i

743
00:29:52,870 --> 00:29:51,200
became involved with the women were

744
00:29:54,549 --> 00:29:52,880
lovely or rather sensible by my

745
00:29:56,389 --> 00:29:54,559
reckoning and very supportive of one

746
00:29:58,870 --> 00:29:56,399
another

747
00:30:00,630 --> 00:29:58,880
many of us myself included were hit with

748
00:30:02,389 --> 00:30:00,640
varying degrees of the comically

749
00:30:04,070 --> 00:30:02,399
misnamed morning sickness throughout our

750
00:30:06,710 --> 00:30:04,080
first trimesters

751
00:30:08,710 --> 00:30:06,720
for me it tended to last all day

752
00:30:10,470 --> 00:30:08,720
i got through it by eating small simple

753
00:30:12,789 --> 00:30:10,480
meals throughout the day and nibbling on

754
00:30:14,549 --> 00:30:12,799
crystallized ginger which has been shown

755
00:30:16,070 --> 00:30:14,559
to be effective in treating symptoms of

756
00:30:17,909 --> 00:30:16,080
morning sickness in randomized

757
00:30:19,669 --> 00:30:17,919
controlled trials

758
00:30:21,909 --> 00:30:19,679
i've known of other women who have tried

759
00:30:24,389 --> 00:30:21,919
acupressure acupuncture traditional

760
00:30:26,710 --> 00:30:24,399
chinese medicine rescue remedy and other

761
00:30:28,230 --> 00:30:26,720
unproven treatments and certainly some

762
00:30:30,070 --> 00:30:28,240
felt that these helped

763
00:30:31,990 --> 00:30:30,080
i'll note that mild morning sickness can

764
00:30:33,909 --> 00:30:32,000
certainly be influenced by the placebo

765
00:30:35,350 --> 00:30:33,919
effect though and it is generally

766
00:30:37,430 --> 00:30:35,360
self-limiting

767
00:30:39,269 --> 00:30:37,440
if it's bad chat to your gp or

768
00:30:41,110 --> 00:30:39,279
obstetrician

769
00:30:43,029 --> 00:30:41,120
there are a few old wives tales around

770
00:30:45,350 --> 00:30:43,039
which claim ways to predict the baby's

771
00:30:47,269 --> 00:30:45,360
gender from the shape of the bump to

772
00:30:48,310 --> 00:30:47,279
dowsing using a wedding ring tied to a

773
00:30:50,230 --> 00:30:48,320
string

774
00:30:53,269 --> 00:30:50,240
the reliable way to find out however

775
00:30:55,029 --> 00:30:53,279
should you want to is via ultrasound

776
00:30:57,510 --> 00:30:55,039
occasionally the sex is apparent at a

777
00:30:59,669 --> 00:30:57,520
12-week nuclear translucency scan which

778
00:31:01,430 --> 00:30:59,679
is used in conjunction with a blood test

779
00:31:03,430 --> 00:31:01,440
to determine risk factors for down

780
00:31:05,669 --> 00:31:03,440
syndrome but if the sonographer is

781
00:31:09,350 --> 00:31:05,679
unable to make the call then the 20-week

782
00:31:11,350 --> 00:31:09,360
fetal morphology scan should reveal all

783
00:31:13,590 --> 00:31:11,360
regarding ultrasounds i was rather

784
00:31:15,669 --> 00:31:13,600
surprised to discover that some people

785
00:31:17,269 --> 00:31:15,679
opt not to have them at all

786
00:31:18,950 --> 00:31:17,279
sometimes because they wish to take a

787
00:31:20,950 --> 00:31:18,960
whatever will be will be approached to

788
00:31:22,630 --> 00:31:20,960
the health of the baby they're carrying

789
00:31:24,310 --> 00:31:22,640
which being quite the fan of being

790
00:31:25,990 --> 00:31:24,320
informed and prepared is difficult for

791
00:31:27,830 --> 00:31:26,000
me to understand

792
00:31:29,590 --> 00:31:27,840
sometimes because of the mistaken belief

793
00:31:31,350 --> 00:31:29,600
that ultrasounds could potentially cause

794
00:31:33,430 --> 00:31:31,360
harm to a fetus

795
00:31:35,909 --> 00:31:33,440
ultrasound imaging as precisely as it

796
00:31:37,750 --> 00:31:35,919
sounds high frequency sound waves which

797
00:31:39,590 --> 00:31:37,760
bounce against different tissues

798
00:31:41,750 --> 00:31:39,600
creating an image based on the return of

799
00:31:44,149 --> 00:31:41,760
the echoes there is no evidence that

800
00:31:45,990 --> 00:31:44,159
ultrasounds have ever caused harm nor

801
00:31:47,669 --> 00:31:46,000
any plausible mechanism by which they

802
00:31:49,430 --> 00:31:47,679
could when used within the guidelines

803
00:31:51,190 --> 00:31:49,440
for obstetric imaging

804
00:31:53,669 --> 00:31:51,200
yet in some sectors of the community a

805
00:31:55,269 --> 00:31:53,679
fear persists one which causes people to

806
00:31:56,710 --> 00:31:55,279
forego learning potentially important

807
00:31:59,029 --> 00:31:56,720
information about their developing

808
00:32:01,029 --> 00:31:59,039
child's health

809
00:32:03,110 --> 00:32:01,039
during my pregnancies my diet seemed to

810
00:32:04,630 --> 00:32:03,120
be of great interest to some people i

811
00:32:06,389 --> 00:32:04,640
stuck to the new south wales food

812
00:32:08,950 --> 00:32:06,399
authority's pregnancy and food safety

813
00:32:10,549 --> 00:32:08,960
guidelines which suggest a balanced diet

814
00:32:12,870 --> 00:32:10,559
which provides optimal maternal

815
00:32:15,029 --> 00:32:12,880
nutrition and foods to avoid to reduce

816
00:32:17,269 --> 00:32:15,039
the risk of consuming pathogens which

817
00:32:20,230 --> 00:32:17,279
can cause risks during pregnancy such as

818
00:32:21,990 --> 00:32:20,240
listeria salmonella and toxoplasmosis

819
00:32:24,149 --> 00:32:22,000
i also avoided alcohol and in

820
00:32:25,990 --> 00:32:24,159
consultation with my doctor cut down my

821
00:32:28,389 --> 00:32:26,000
coffee consumption to no more than two

822
00:32:30,230 --> 00:32:28,399
cups of weak instant coffee a day this

823
00:32:31,430 --> 00:32:30,240
being the most radical dietary change i

824
00:32:33,269 --> 00:32:31,440
undertook

825
00:32:35,029 --> 00:32:33,279
it was around this time that i began to

826
00:32:37,669 --> 00:32:35,039
hear what has humorously dubbed the

827
00:32:39,430 --> 00:32:37,679
mother-in-law fallacy i ate soft cheeses

828
00:32:40,950 --> 00:32:39,440
during my pregnancy and my kids turned

829
00:32:43,350 --> 00:32:40,960
out okay

830
00:32:44,789 --> 00:32:43,360
it can take many forms somebody drunk

831
00:32:46,630 --> 00:32:44,799
alcohol through their pregnancies and

832
00:32:47,990 --> 00:32:46,640
their kids were fine somebody didn't

833
00:32:50,070 --> 00:32:48,000
take fallout supplements throughout

834
00:32:51,590 --> 00:32:50,080
their pregnancy and their kids were fine

835
00:32:53,990 --> 00:32:51,600
somebody had a home birth and they were

836
00:32:56,310 --> 00:32:54,000
fine which is good i want everybody to

837
00:32:58,389 --> 00:32:56,320
be fine however a small amount of

838
00:33:00,710 --> 00:32:58,399
anecdotal evidence is not enough to draw

839
00:33:02,389 --> 00:33:00,720
conclusions on and i was continually

840
00:33:04,149 --> 00:33:02,399
surprised that people seem to feel that

841
00:33:06,070 --> 00:33:04,159
i should just trust their experience

842
00:33:07,750 --> 00:33:06,080
over medical advice

843
00:33:10,310 --> 00:33:07,760
people with a great deal of expertise in

844
00:33:11,990 --> 00:33:10,320
obstetric medicine calculate risks by

845
00:33:13,830 --> 00:33:12,000
assessing all available knowledge in

846
00:33:15,909 --> 00:33:13,840
their field and make recommendations

847
00:33:17,509 --> 00:33:15,919
based on such they're summarized in

848
00:33:19,509 --> 00:33:17,519
handy little booklets and i'm quite

849
00:33:20,870 --> 00:33:19,519
inclined to follow them and honestly

850
00:33:22,630 --> 00:33:20,880
whatever the risk it was no great

851
00:33:25,110 --> 00:33:22,640
sacrifice in the grand scheme of things

852
00:33:26,870 --> 00:33:25,120
to go up sushi for 42 weeks at a time

853
00:33:28,630 --> 00:33:26,880
and the glory of a postpartum sushi

854
00:33:30,549 --> 00:33:28,640
binge is worth the wait even if the

855
00:33:33,190 --> 00:33:30,559
chances of my consuming dodgy sushi

856
00:33:34,789 --> 00:33:33,200
during pregnancy were negligible

857
00:33:36,549 --> 00:33:34,799
i really don't have the time to properly

858
00:33:38,470 --> 00:33:36,559
address the anti-obstetric sentiment

859
00:33:39,990 --> 00:33:38,480
that i witnessed coming from some women

860
00:33:42,310 --> 00:33:40,000
who felt that childbirth was too

861
00:33:44,149 --> 00:33:42,320
medicalised and that it is a natural

862
00:33:46,389 --> 00:33:44,159
function that our bodies are capable of

863
00:33:49,269 --> 00:33:46,399
getting through unassisted or perhaps

864
00:33:51,909 --> 00:33:49,279
supported by our home midwife or dollar

865
00:33:54,230 --> 00:33:51,919
i will say though that yes pregnancy and

866
00:33:57,190 --> 00:33:54,240
childbirth are perfectly natural

867
00:33:59,029 --> 00:33:57,200
sadly so are maternal and infant deaths

868
00:34:01,190 --> 00:33:59,039
my second pregnancy was declared to be

869
00:34:03,269 --> 00:34:01,200
low risk and i'm quite sure that had i

870
00:34:05,509 --> 00:34:03,279
wanted to i could have sought out a home

871
00:34:07,350 --> 00:34:05,519
midwife to attend our home birth

872
00:34:09,990 --> 00:34:07,360
had i done this i would likely have bled

873
00:34:12,149 --> 00:34:10,000
to death as i experienced an unexpected

874
00:34:14,230 --> 00:34:12,159
postpartum hemorrhage

875
00:34:16,710 --> 00:34:14,240
the conduct of some obstetricians is not

876
00:34:18,470 --> 00:34:16,720
above criticism of course but to shun

877
00:34:20,389 --> 00:34:18,480
access to medical assistance should it

878
00:34:22,869 --> 00:34:20,399
be needed in favor of a more natural

879
00:34:24,470 --> 00:34:22,879
birthing experience stuns me i can only

880
00:34:26,710 --> 00:34:24,480
assume that these decisions are based on

881
00:34:28,710 --> 00:34:26,720
an accurate risk assessment

882
00:34:30,869 --> 00:34:28,720
for a more detailed examination of no

883
00:34:32,950 --> 00:34:30,879
intervention and home birthing movements

884
00:34:35,349 --> 00:34:32,960
i'd suggest to read of dr amy tutor's

885
00:34:37,349 --> 00:34:35,359
blog the skeptical obey be warned though

886
00:34:40,629 --> 00:34:37,359
there are some incredibly sad stories of

887
00:34:42,389 --> 00:34:40,639
home births with tragic consequences

888
00:34:44,550 --> 00:34:42,399
a more generalized sentiment that seems

889
00:34:46,629 --> 00:34:44,560
to permeate mothering groups is that of

890
00:34:48,470 --> 00:34:46,639
the appeal to nature fallacy from

891
00:34:51,669 --> 00:34:48,480
conception to breastfeeding to organic

892
00:34:53,669 --> 00:34:51,679
baby food and extreme cases a rejection

893
00:34:56,149 --> 00:34:53,679
of modern medical science resulting in

894
00:34:58,230 --> 00:34:56,159
vaccine and medication refusal

895
00:35:00,310 --> 00:34:58,240
the archetype of the natural mother is a

896
00:35:02,550 --> 00:35:00,320
powerful one which many women find

897
00:35:05,109 --> 00:35:02,560
appealing and a worthy aspiration

898
00:35:06,870 --> 00:35:05,119
she is wise nurturing and intuitive and

899
00:35:08,150 --> 00:35:06,880
indeed these are qualities that i myself

900
00:35:10,069 --> 00:35:08,160
aspire to

901
00:35:11,589 --> 00:35:10,079
unfortunately though some people's

902
00:35:13,990 --> 00:35:11,599
intuition tells them to reject

903
00:35:15,750 --> 00:35:14,000
evidence-based practices in medicine

904
00:35:18,230 --> 00:35:15,760
the adage that mother knows best is

905
00:35:19,589 --> 00:35:18,240
sadly not always accurate

906
00:35:20,710 --> 00:35:19,599
i hope that you found this report

907
00:35:22,950 --> 00:35:20,720
interesting

908
00:35:25,670 --> 00:35:22,960
next week i'll be discussing induction

909
00:35:27,829 --> 00:35:25,680
birth lactation colic vaccination and

910
00:35:29,270 --> 00:35:27,839
teething and i'll be making a terrible

911
00:35:31,270 --> 00:35:29,280
confession about some dodgy

912
00:35:33,910 --> 00:35:31,280
pseudoscience that my sleep-deprived

913
00:35:46,870 --> 00:35:33,920
postpartum brain briefly fell for

914
00:35:51,589 --> 00:35:49,349
is an award-winning weekly science show

915
00:35:53,109 --> 00:35:51,599
in french hosted by a bunch of crazy

916
00:35:55,589 --> 00:35:53,119
enthusiasts

917
00:35:57,910 --> 00:35:55,599
we are convinced that the greatest ideas

918
00:35:59,990 --> 00:35:57,920
in science are quite easy to grasp as

919
00:36:02,550 --> 00:36:00,000
long as they're presented with passion

920
00:36:05,030 --> 00:36:02,560
using a vocabulary common to all curious

921
00:36:06,310 --> 00:36:05,040
minds whatever their academic background

922
00:36:08,390 --> 00:36:06,320
if any

923
00:36:09,670 --> 00:36:08,400
we don't understand french yet but it's

924
00:36:11,270 --> 00:36:09,680
never too late

925
00:36:13,109 --> 00:36:11,280
all our stories have a written

926
00:36:15,270 --> 00:36:13,119
transcript on the website and people

927
00:36:17,910 --> 00:36:15,280
from all around the world are using our

928
00:36:20,550 --> 00:36:17,920
content to learn malia's language

929
00:36:23,150 --> 00:36:20,560
our topics range from zero to infinity

930
00:36:25,030 --> 00:36:23,160
from evolution to artificial life from

931
00:36:28,150 --> 00:36:25,040
electromagnetism to the science of

932
00:36:31,270 --> 00:36:28,160
introverts we just love mathematics

933
00:36:32,390 --> 00:36:31,280
science critical thinking so do you want

934
00:36:34,069 --> 00:36:32,400
to join

935
00:36:35,870 --> 00:36:34,079
you can subscribe to the podcast for

936
00:36:38,630 --> 00:36:35,880
free from our website

937
00:36:41,349 --> 00:36:38,640
podcastscience.fm that's in one word you

938
00:36:44,069 --> 00:36:41,359
also find us on itunes and soundcloud

939
00:37:01,109 --> 00:36:44,079
see you soon hopefully at

940
00:37:06,710 --> 00:37:03,190
well hello there everybody out there in

941
00:37:10,870 --> 00:37:06,720
skeptic land this is dr chrissy wilson

942
00:37:14,310 --> 00:37:10,880
coming to you from a very sunny london

943
00:37:17,510 --> 00:37:14,320
i'm here on an extended holiday and it's

944
00:37:19,510 --> 00:37:17,520
actually friday the 13th today so i hope

945
00:37:21,270 --> 00:37:19,520
you're all back there 11 000 miles away

946
00:37:24,550 --> 00:37:21,280
and around the globe

947
00:37:26,630 --> 00:37:24,560
having a very happy and lucky friday the

948
00:37:29,109 --> 00:37:26,640
13th not that we believe in such things

949
00:37:31,670 --> 00:37:29,119
of course but i've got some good fortune

950
00:37:35,510 --> 00:37:31,680
to tell you about i've recently found

951
00:37:37,349 --> 00:37:35,520
out that a book that i contributed to

952
00:37:38,550 --> 00:37:37,359
has just been published it's just come

953
00:37:40,710 --> 00:37:38,560
out in print

954
00:37:44,390 --> 00:37:40,720
i'd like to tell you about it it's it's

955
00:37:47,349 --> 00:37:44,400
called the survival hypothesis

956
00:37:52,069 --> 00:37:47,359
published by mcfarland press and edited

957
00:37:53,349 --> 00:37:52,079
by dr adam rock and it's a collection of

958
00:37:55,750 --> 00:37:53,359
essays

959
00:37:58,270 --> 00:37:55,760
and various contributions from a range

960
00:37:59,829 --> 00:37:58,280
of academics psychologists and

961
00:38:03,349 --> 00:37:59,839
parapsychologists

962
00:38:06,630 --> 00:38:03,359
on the state of research into the idea

963
00:38:08,069 --> 00:38:06,640
of consciousness surviving death

964
00:38:11,030 --> 00:38:08,079
specifically

965
00:38:12,950 --> 00:38:11,040
it's looking at the scientific evidence

966
00:38:16,310 --> 00:38:12,960
for mediumship

967
00:38:19,109 --> 00:38:16,320
now adam approached me and asked me if i

968
00:38:21,430 --> 00:38:19,119
would like to contribute a chapter

969
00:38:24,470 --> 00:38:21,440
to give a skeptic's view

970
00:38:28,870 --> 00:38:24,480
the whole book is essentially a group of

971
00:38:31,829 --> 00:38:28,880
essays that are somewhat sympathetic

972
00:38:33,150 --> 00:38:31,839
towards the idea that mediumship is real

973
00:38:35,430 --> 00:38:33,160
it's very much coming from a

974
00:38:37,430 --> 00:38:35,440
parapsychological perspective which as

975
00:38:39,829 --> 00:38:37,440
you will all know is very sympathetic

976
00:38:43,109 --> 00:38:39,839
except sympathetic towards the idea that

977
00:38:45,670 --> 00:38:43,119
psy and psychic powers etc

978
00:38:47,750 --> 00:38:45,680
are real and testable so they've asked

979
00:38:49,829 --> 00:38:47,760
me to give a skeptic's view

980
00:38:52,710 --> 00:38:49,839
now to be fair to adam um he has

981
00:38:55,910 --> 00:38:52,720
attempted to get a nice range of

982
00:38:58,829 --> 00:38:55,920
approaches and views so you've got

983
00:39:01,750 --> 00:38:58,839
essays for example on a qualitative

984
00:39:03,829 --> 00:39:01,760
approach to mediumship so what people

985
00:39:06,310 --> 00:39:03,839
actually say about how they what they

986
00:39:10,230 --> 00:39:06,320
believe as far as mediumships concerns

987
00:39:13,589 --> 00:39:10,240
they've got mixed designs they've got um

988
00:39:16,150 --> 00:39:13,599
laboratory research

989
00:39:17,589 --> 00:39:16,160
and and empirical evidence from from

990
00:39:19,109 --> 00:39:17,599
laboratory studies

991
00:39:21,270 --> 00:39:19,119
they've even got a chapter on

992
00:39:23,670 --> 00:39:21,280
neuroscience the the neuroscience

993
00:39:24,470 --> 00:39:23,680
relating to mediumship

994
00:39:27,270 --> 00:39:24,480
so

995
00:39:29,990 --> 00:39:27,280
my particular contribution focuses on

996
00:39:34,069 --> 00:39:30,000
two particular areas number one i've

997
00:39:37,270 --> 00:39:34,079
given a fairly a fairly uh abrupt

998
00:39:40,950 --> 00:39:37,280
critical appraisal of the research

999
00:39:42,950 --> 00:39:40,960
literature from the parapsychologists

1000
00:39:45,990 --> 00:39:42,960
and i mean this is not new you know

1001
00:39:47,990 --> 00:39:46,000
there were a lot of studies done um way

1002
00:39:49,670 --> 00:39:48,000
back in the 70s and 80s

1003
00:39:51,589 --> 00:39:49,680
mostly carried out by

1004
00:39:53,030 --> 00:39:51,599
a team led by someone called gary

1005
00:39:56,470 --> 00:39:53,040
schwartz

1006
00:39:58,950 --> 00:39:56,480
who did a bunch of studies attempting to

1007
00:40:01,750 --> 00:39:58,960
show that mediumship was real and he did

1008
00:40:07,270 --> 00:40:01,760
some studies in a laboratory with

1009
00:40:10,230 --> 00:40:07,280
various psychics and it was given a huge

1010
00:40:13,430 --> 00:40:10,240
amount of media coverage when when these

1011
00:40:16,550 --> 00:40:13,440
findings came out and not surprisingly

1012
00:40:17,910 --> 00:40:16,560
skeptics people such as wiseman and ray

1013
00:40:21,230 --> 00:40:17,920
hyman

1014
00:40:23,190 --> 00:40:21,240
looked at the work and looked at the

1015
00:40:26,270 --> 00:40:23,200
methodological

1016
00:40:28,710 --> 00:40:26,280
descriptions of the studies and the

1017
00:40:29,910 --> 00:40:28,720
interpretations of their results and

1018
00:40:32,550 --> 00:40:29,920
actually came to very different

1019
00:40:34,790 --> 00:40:32,560
conclusions so i'm kind of following on

1020
00:40:36,870 --> 00:40:34,800
from that and looking at more recent

1021
00:40:38,390 --> 00:40:36,880
studies that have have

1022
00:40:39,710 --> 00:40:38,400
taken place

1023
00:40:42,310 --> 00:40:39,720
interestingly one of the

1024
00:40:45,510 --> 00:40:42,320
parapsychologists that that has produced

1025
00:40:48,069 --> 00:40:45,520
some research in this area is called arc

1026
00:40:53,349 --> 00:40:51,190
that sort of thing doesn't really

1027
00:40:55,430 --> 00:40:53,359
give much confidence really

1028
00:40:57,670 --> 00:40:55,440
to skeptical reviews but anyway i've

1029
00:40:59,430 --> 00:40:57,680
looked at the research and and

1030
00:41:02,870 --> 00:40:59,440
they're typically

1031
00:41:05,430 --> 00:41:02,880
reproducing the same mistakes

1032
00:41:06,390 --> 00:41:05,440
and the methodological issues are still

1033
00:41:08,309 --> 00:41:06,400
there so

1034
00:41:10,150 --> 00:41:08,319
for example

1035
00:41:12,710 --> 00:41:10,160
when researchers

1036
00:41:14,390 --> 00:41:12,720
write in their methods section that they

1037
00:41:17,750 --> 00:41:14,400
used quote

1038
00:41:18,829 --> 00:41:17,760
for this study we used five

1039
00:41:21,270 --> 00:41:18,839
gifted

1040
00:41:23,190 --> 00:41:21,280
psychics to take part in this particular

1041
00:41:26,630 --> 00:41:23,200
experiment i mean that kind of thing

1042
00:41:29,109 --> 00:41:26,640
does not feel a skeptic a reviewer with

1043
00:41:32,230 --> 00:41:29,119
confidence and there are all sorts of

1044
00:41:33,990 --> 00:41:32,240
methodological issues associated with

1045
00:41:35,510 --> 00:41:34,000
this line of research that's one of the

1046
00:41:39,030 --> 00:41:35,520
things that i talk about

1047
00:41:43,510 --> 00:41:39,040
the second thing that i talk about um is

1048
00:41:45,270 --> 00:41:43,520
the egregious nature of psychic mediums

1049
00:41:48,630 --> 00:41:45,280
and i talk about the history of psychic

1050
00:41:50,630 --> 00:41:48,640
mediumship etc and how where we are with

1051
00:41:53,030 --> 00:41:50,640
the modern approach to psychic

1052
00:41:55,910 --> 00:41:53,040
mediumship and nothing really seems

1053
00:41:58,230 --> 00:41:55,920
to have changed in a hundred years you

1054
00:42:01,030 --> 00:41:58,240
know we've still got the con artists out

1055
00:42:02,550 --> 00:42:01,040
there and we all know who they are and

1056
00:42:04,870 --> 00:42:02,560
we've still got the legion of

1057
00:42:06,390 --> 00:42:04,880
well-meaning but misinformed individuals

1058
00:42:07,270 --> 00:42:06,400
who think that they actually have the

1059
00:42:11,109 --> 00:42:07,280
gift

1060
00:42:13,829 --> 00:42:11,119
um so it it's all in this anthology and

1061
00:42:17,349 --> 00:42:13,839
to be fair to the publishers and the

1062
00:42:20,790 --> 00:42:17,359
editor they've tried to create not just

1063
00:42:23,910 --> 00:42:20,800
a sort of new aeg textbook that would be

1064
00:42:25,990 --> 00:42:23,920
in the occult section of a bookshop

1065
00:42:28,230 --> 00:42:26,000
they've actually very much gone for a

1066
00:42:31,829 --> 00:42:28,240
scholarly text

1067
00:42:35,349 --> 00:42:31,839
and it is an attempt to

1068
00:42:37,430 --> 00:42:35,359
investigate scientifically the

1069
00:42:40,390 --> 00:42:37,440
nature of mediumship and what it all

1070
00:42:42,870 --> 00:42:40,400
means so anyway my my skeptical

1071
00:42:45,270 --> 00:42:42,880
contribution is in there look out for it

1072
00:42:49,030 --> 00:42:45,280
it's called the survival hypothesis

1073
00:42:52,470 --> 00:42:49,040
mcfarland press and edited by adam rock

1074
00:42:54,230 --> 00:42:52,480
and as a little coder to this um as a as

1075
00:42:55,750 --> 00:42:54,240
a result of this being published i've

1076
00:42:59,109 --> 00:42:55,760
been invited

1077
00:43:02,150 --> 00:42:59,119
to speak at an up-and-coming convention

1078
00:43:05,190 --> 00:43:02,160
called the afterlife convention and it's

1079
00:43:07,589 --> 00:43:05,200
being held next next year in melbourne

1080
00:43:09,109 --> 00:43:07,599
and uh

1081
00:43:11,030 --> 00:43:09,119
it's essentially

1082
00:43:13,829 --> 00:43:11,040
a convention

1083
00:43:15,750 --> 00:43:13,839
um is celebrating

1084
00:43:17,349 --> 00:43:15,760
the nature of mediumship and celebrating

1085
00:43:19,589 --> 00:43:17,359
the fact that that we can talk to the

1086
00:43:22,470 --> 00:43:19,599
dead and i'm not quite sure whether the

1087
00:43:24,390 --> 00:43:22,480
the conveners are pre uh understand that

1088
00:43:26,550 --> 00:43:24,400
i'm actually a skeptic so it's going to

1089
00:43:28,230 --> 00:43:26,560
be quite interesting

1090
00:43:30,550 --> 00:43:28,240
uh i don't really think they're going to

1091
00:43:32,470 --> 00:43:30,560
appreciate a little blonde pommy

1092
00:43:34,870 --> 00:43:32,480
intimating in no uncertain terms that

1093
00:43:36,390 --> 00:43:34,880
they're all actually deluded

1094
00:43:38,390 --> 00:43:36,400
i was wondering i don't think there's

1095
00:43:40,950 --> 00:43:38,400
actually been a public stoning of a

1096
00:43:42,550 --> 00:43:40,960
skeptic for a while but watch this space

1097
00:43:45,910 --> 00:43:42,560
because that could well happen

1098
00:43:47,910 --> 00:43:45,920
and just before i leave you um

1099
00:43:49,589 --> 00:43:47,920
two two things that you might be

1100
00:43:50,950 --> 00:43:49,599
interested in number one

1101
00:43:52,950 --> 00:43:50,960
those of you that read the skeptic

1102
00:43:55,510 --> 00:43:52,960
magazine

1103
00:43:58,309 --> 00:43:55,520
may have read my article in the the last

1104
00:43:59,510 --> 00:43:58,319
edition where i'm talking about a new

1105
00:44:01,589 --> 00:43:59,520
course

1106
00:44:04,710 --> 00:44:01,599
that i've written for macquarie

1107
00:44:07,349 --> 00:44:04,720
university the course is called uh why

1108
00:44:11,190 --> 00:44:07,359
people believe weird things and it's a

1109
00:44:13,270 --> 00:44:11,200
12-week course for undergraduates

1110
00:44:15,430 --> 00:44:13,280
explaining why people we believe in

1111
00:44:17,270 --> 00:44:15,440
weird stuff looking at all the different

1112
00:44:18,950 --> 00:44:17,280
things that i usually bang on about

1113
00:44:21,190 --> 00:44:18,960
cognitive approaches biological

1114
00:44:24,630 --> 00:44:21,200
approaches etc etc

1115
00:44:27,109 --> 00:44:24,640
and initially um myself and the director

1116
00:44:29,109 --> 00:44:27,119
who put this together mark carter at

1117
00:44:31,910 --> 00:44:29,119
macquarie university we expected to get

1118
00:44:36,630 --> 00:44:31,920
about 80 students enrolled

1119
00:44:38,950 --> 00:44:36,640
in the first session that this has been

1120
00:44:40,109 --> 00:44:38,960
presented but we've actually just

1121
00:44:43,109 --> 00:44:40,119
reached

1122
00:44:45,109 --> 00:44:43,119
450 students who are now enrolled in

1123
00:44:48,829 --> 00:44:45,119
this course so it's absolutely a

1124
00:44:51,910 --> 00:44:48,839
fabulous result and it does show that

1125
00:44:54,230 --> 00:44:51,920
skepticism is out there and and it is

1126
00:44:55,829 --> 00:44:54,240
attracting lots and lots of students

1127
00:44:58,069 --> 00:44:55,839
these are mostly

1128
00:45:01,270 --> 00:44:58,079
education students

1129
00:45:03,030 --> 00:45:01,280
so these are future educators so we're

1130
00:45:05,750 --> 00:45:03,040
really really pleased that we've got so

1131
00:45:07,109 --> 00:45:05,760
many students enrolled and at the end of

1132
00:45:10,230 --> 00:45:07,119
the year

1133
00:45:12,309 --> 00:45:10,240
after the course has finished um i'll be

1134
00:45:15,270 --> 00:45:12,319
reporting on on

1135
00:45:17,829 --> 00:45:15,280
the students response to the course

1136
00:45:20,470 --> 00:45:17,839
and how they found it and whether their

1137
00:45:22,150 --> 00:45:20,480
particular personal views

1138
00:45:24,710 --> 00:45:22,160
have changed

1139
00:45:26,390 --> 00:45:24,720
as a result of doing the course so i

1140
00:45:30,150 --> 00:45:26,400
will get back to you

1141
00:45:32,470 --> 00:45:30,160
on that in a later edition no doubt and

1142
00:45:33,750 --> 00:45:32,480
just before i leave uh it's friday the

1143
00:45:34,550 --> 00:45:33,760
13th

1144
00:45:36,390 --> 00:45:34,560
and

1145
00:45:39,430 --> 00:45:36,400
it's just at the start of the world cup

1146
00:45:41,510 --> 00:45:39,440
so it's australia's first game tonight

1147
00:45:44,150 --> 00:45:41,520
so best of luck to australia and best of

1148
00:45:45,750 --> 00:45:44,160
luck to england tomorrow

1149
00:45:48,230 --> 00:45:45,760
i wonder what the chances are of getting

1150
00:45:49,829 --> 00:45:48,240
england and australia in the final

1151
00:45:52,069 --> 00:45:49,839
wouldn't that be fantastic by the time

1152
00:45:54,309 --> 00:45:52,079
you're all hearing this i'm sure it may

1153
00:45:55,670 --> 00:45:54,319
well all be over for both australia and

1154
00:45:58,390 --> 00:45:55,680
england but

1155
00:46:00,870 --> 00:45:58,400
let's keep our fingers crossed not that

1156
00:46:01,670 --> 00:46:00,880
we believe in such things okay guys

1157
00:46:05,390 --> 00:46:01,680
that's

1158
00:46:08,069 --> 00:46:05,400
dr chrissy um signing off and as one

1159
00:46:19,829 --> 00:46:08,079
parapsychologist said to the other i'll

1160
00:46:24,550 --> 00:46:22,069
hi i'm finn and i'm rebecca and we're

1161
00:46:26,710 --> 00:46:24,560
the skepticons skepercons is an irish

1162
00:46:28,390 --> 00:46:26,720
podcast by the dublin skeptic society it

1163
00:46:30,150 --> 00:46:28,400
takes a conversational reverent look at

1164
00:46:32,150 --> 00:46:30,160
science news and skeptical topics from

1165
00:46:51,670 --> 00:46:32,160
an irish perspective you can find us at

1166
00:46:54,950 --> 00:46:53,430
thank you for listening to the skeptic

1167
00:46:57,829 --> 00:46:54,960
zone and thank you to all those lovely

1168
00:47:00,309 --> 00:46:57,839
uh sort of editorials and comments and

1169
00:47:02,710 --> 00:47:00,319
segments we had today well i really

1170
00:47:05,109 --> 00:47:02,720
enjoyed the uh the one from signer kane

1171
00:47:07,430 --> 00:47:05,119
and joe alabaster chrissy wilson and of

1172
00:47:09,190 --> 00:47:07,440
course not to forget iran so

1173
00:47:11,829 --> 00:47:09,200
oh and those people have been writing in

1174
00:47:13,430 --> 00:47:11,839
asking me about fred the cat he's right

1175
00:47:14,950 --> 00:47:13,440
here next to me

1176
00:47:16,710 --> 00:47:14,960
sound asleep

1177
00:47:18,870 --> 00:47:16,720
he doesn't really perform on cue fred

1178
00:47:20,470 --> 00:47:18,880
the cat i'm afraid to say but

1179
00:47:23,190 --> 00:47:20,480
he's doing okay

1180
00:47:25,030 --> 00:47:23,200
he has this trick of howling loudly in

1181
00:47:27,750 --> 00:47:25,040
the morning because he wants to go into

1182
00:47:30,309 --> 00:47:27,760
the bathroom to drink tap water

1183
00:47:31,750 --> 00:47:30,319
cat owners will know what i mean

1184
00:47:34,069 --> 00:47:31,760
so for this week this is richard

1185
00:47:40,550 --> 00:47:34,079
saunders and a sleeping fred the cat

1186
00:47:43,750 --> 00:47:42,230
you've been listening to the skeptic

1187
00:47:48,550 --> 00:47:43,760
zone